Welcome to The Shack Forum! Forum posting rules can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3
And an explanation of how to navigate around the forum: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=63
New members are encouraged to post here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=75

Insights invited

Questions and Conversation about Chapter 11

Moderator: Forum Admin

OneSheep
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm

Insights invited

Post by OneSheep » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:08 pm

Hi Folks, I have some questions on these pages, I'm not sure they were clearly answered in this wonderful book. Insights would be helpful!

Reading Page 163 in the paperback: Does the Judge ever really answer or address the accusation that God knew Missy would be brutalized but created her anyway?

Why did God know, but create anyway?


From page 165: “But I haven’t judged anything” Mack offered in confusion.
“Oh but you have. You have judged them worthy of love, even if it costs you everything. That is how Jesus loves.”

Question: Was the “cost” Papa’s will? If so, what was the cost, and why was the cost necessary?

Doggie
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 767
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by Doggie » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:18 pm

Your first question is really a tough one. I'll answer it by asking you a question. You have at times suffered I'm sure. You have friends and family that have suffered. Would you want to live without anybody that you know have suffered? Would you want to give up your life to avoid the suffering you have been though? The movie "It's a Wonderful Life" looks at the effect that we have on others. Would you want to negate any positive your life has or will be on others so you don't have to suffer? The bible tells us to rejoice in our suffering because of how we grow through it.

The wages of disobedience is death. All of mankind has disobeyed. We all deserve death. Instead of condemning us to an eternity separated from God, which is spiritual death, God became flesh and walked asking us and took on the filth of our sin so that the penalty was paid in full and we could be reconciled to him. To imagine how hard it was and how loving it is I want you to picture a friend covered in dog turds, now imagine you taking all of their clothes off and cleaning the with your hands, wiping it on yourself and then giving them your clothes while you put on theirs. That is what Jesus did as he hung on that cross. He left the glories of heaven and gave up the use of his power to give up his life for us.
It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

OneSheep
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by OneSheep » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:30 pm

I'm not sure that Papa, as depicted in the book, would agree on the "deserved death". Papa sounds very loving and forgiving, so he would not want to punish in such a way for disobedience, right? I certainly would not wish death upon my own children for an act of disobedience, and Papa is far more loving than me. So why was the cost necessary? Was it that it took the act of murder itself, carried out by us, to show us that we hurt him when we sin?

As far as the suffering goes, I see your point. I was hoping to have missed something from the story though...

Thanks!

Doggie
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 767
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by Doggie » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 pm

This book is not a book about salvation. It is a book about restoring Mack's broken relationship with God.
OneSheep wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:30 pm
I'm not sure that Papa, as depicted in the book, would agree on the "deserved death". Papa sounds very loving and forgiving, so he would not want to punish in such a way for disobedience, right? I certainly would not wish death upon my own children for an act of disobedience, and Papa is far more loving than me. So why was the cost necessary? Was it that it took the act of murder itself, carried out by us, to show us that we hurt him when we sin?

As far as the suffering goes, I see your point. I was hoping to have missed something from the story though...

Thanks!
My answers are based on my knowledge of the bible more than this book. You did state that God is loving. Have you ever heard of tough love? Is it loving for a father to allow his children to do anything they want? Allowing death was a mercy, forcing Adam and Eve to spend forever separated from what they had experienced in the garden would be cruel.

As far as the suffering answer in the book, remember that Mack knew that he would be reunited with Missy after death so he still had the memories and then also the hope.
It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

OneSheep
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by OneSheep » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:18 pm

Doggie wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 pm
This book is not a book about salvation. It is a book about restoring Mack's broken relationship with God.

My answers are based on my knowledge of the bible more than this book. You did state that God is loving. Have you ever heard of tough love? Is it loving for a father to allow his children to do anything they want? Allowing death was a mercy, forcing Adam and Eve to spend forever separated from what they had experienced in the garden would be cruel.

As far as the suffering answer in the book, remember that Mack knew that he would be reunited with Missy after death so he still had the memories and then also the hope.
But would you banish your own children from the Garden forever, or would you forgive them and invite them back?

Do you see what I am saying? A god who banishes forever is not using a restorative practice, it comes off being vengeful. On the other hand, we can say that the "banishment" is simply a metaphor for our own alienation/disunity. While Papa has always been there with open arms, we had been under the illusion that He held a grudge against us... until Jesus came and showed us His forgiveness.

Doggie
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 767
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by Doggie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:48 am

He did invite them back through Jesus Christ.
It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

User avatar
Papalovesyou
Forum Admin
Forum Admin
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:11 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Insights invited

Post by Papalovesyou » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:41 pm

What if the banishment, and (physical) death, was the surgical operation for separation (in the physical realm). To have to live in separation for eternity (for the First Couple)? And Christ the ultimate cure?

The consequence of the Fall was a distorted view of the Creator. Much of the OT is seen by its authors through that lens. I think we need to remember perfectionist performance was always supposed to point us to the nexus of time and space, our Brother Jesus!

Blessings,
[m]
May we all come to know Papa as we are known... and see ourselves as He sees us!

OneSheep
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by OneSheep » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:10 pm

Papalovesyou wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:41 pm
What if the banishment, and (physical) death, was the surgical operation for separation (in the physical realm). To have to live in separation for eternity (for the First Couple)? And Christ the ultimate cure?
Good Morning, Friend.

The surgery makes sense in a phenomenological way. We very ordinarily see our own childhood as a time of innocence, and then we start doing and thinking things that are hurtful and as we form our conscience, we come to see as bad. We have been separated from our innocence, so to speak.

However, does it not glorify Papa to say that He has never been part of any separation, and He has never banished the creatures He created beautiful and loves ? Is it not the conscience that gets stuck on self-blaming?

Papalovesyou wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:41 pm
The consequence of the Fall was a distorted view of the Creator. Much of the OT is seen by its authors through that lens. I think we need to remember perfectionist performance was always supposed to point us to the nexus of time and space, our Brother Jesus!

Blessings,
[m]
Is it not possible that the image of God punishing Adam and Eve, that our nature had somehow become corrupted, and that death was a punishment for disobedience, also present a distorted view of our Creator? I am not at all meaning to blame or find "bad" the distorted view, because the view in itself serves a very good purpose, but the distorted view becomes a bit obsolete when love, not guilt or fear, becomes what motivates our merciful behavior.

In summary, it seems to me that by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, (gaining a conscience), we came to see parts of ourselves as bad (therefore a "fall" occurred) and we naturally projected that God punishes us in the same way that we naturally punish ourselves and each other (actions of the conscience).

Yes, our Brother Jesus comes and clarifies who Papa is, He shows us that He has loved us all along and never held a grudge!

User avatar
Papalovesyou
Forum Admin
Forum Admin
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:11 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Insights invited

Post by Papalovesyou » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Good Morning, Friend.

The surgery makes sense in a phenomenological way. We very ordinarily see our own childhood as a time of innocence, and then we start doing and thinking things that are hurtful and as we form our conscience, we come to see as bad. We have been separated from our innocence, so to speak.

However, does it not glorify Papa to say that He has never been part of any separation, and He has never banished the creatures He created beautiful and loves ? Is it not the conscience that gets stuck on self-blaming?
Let me amplify. I don't see it as a matter of blame (or blaming). As creatures of free will separation occurred when a lack of trust resulted in a choice, which resulted in separation (mankind turned from the Great Dance).
Is it not possible that the image of God punishing Adam and Eve, that our nature had somehow become corrupted, and that death was a punishment for disobedience, also present a distorted view of our Creator? I am not at all meaning to blame or find "bad" the distorted view, because the view in itself serves a very good purpose, but the distorted view becomes a bit obsolete when love, not guilt or fear, becomes what motivates our merciful behavior.
The image of Papa has been grossly distorted as a consequence of separation and resultant fear. This fear has been amplified, as "men of God", seeing through "fallen"/fearful eyes, distorted His image of perfect love.
In summary, it seems to me that by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, (gaining a conscience), we came to see parts of ourselves as bad (therefore a "fall" occurred) and we naturally projected that God punishes us in the same way that we naturally punish ourselves and each other (actions of the conscience).
Eating of the tree of good and evil was a departure from the Great Dance, the loving trusting relationship with Papa, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Man turned away from God, not the other way around. I posit the conscience may be the Divine within, a spark of Love that prods us towards the Spirit, Who in turn, ponts us to brother Jesus.
Yes, our Brother Jesus comes and clarifies who Papa is, He shows us that He has loved us all along and never held a grudge!
Jesus modeled a re-turning to the trust and love of the Great Dance. If we look back and read what has been purported to be the Words of Jesus, and filter that through the lens of Love, the truth will set us FREE!

Blessings,
[m]
May we all come to know Papa as we are known... and see ourselves as He sees us!

OneSheep
Not a Newbie
Not a Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm

Re: Insights invited

Post by OneSheep » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:33 pm

Papalovesyou wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:05 pm
Let me amplify. I don't see it as a matter of blame (or blaming). As creatures of free will separation occurred when a lack of trust resulted in a choice, which resulted in separation (mankind turned from the Great Dance).
This is assuming, though, that Papa offers with complete clarity. It is true that we do turn from what is good, but when doing so we are seeking what appears to be something better, as Eve did in the garden. It was her desire for something good that blinded her conscience, her value of obedience. So while there are temporary separations, the desire within is to turn for the good. We suffer separation, then we discern the truth and come back to relationship. And of course, Papa never separates from us, which I think you agree.

So to me, it is not a matter of mankind "separating". It is a matter of all of us individually, inadvertently, separating ourselves from relationship. Jesus shows us that God has always loved and forgave without condition
The image of Papa has been grossly distorted as a consequence of separation and resultant fear. This fear has been amplified, as "men of God", seeing through "fallen"/fearful eyes, distorted His image of perfect love.
Well, the distortion is natural. We suffer, and we think we deserve to suffer. This is the action of the conscience itself. Jesus came, in part, to clear up the distortion and show us a way forward, right? He showed us a perfect love, as you say.
Eating of the tree of good and evil was a departure from the Great Dance, the loving trusting relationship with Papa, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Man turned away from God, not the other way around. I posit the conscience may be the Divine within, a spark of Love that prods us towards the Spirit, Who in turn, ponts us to brother Jesus.
Yes, we turn from Papa, but as Jesus observed of His crucifiers, we did not know what we were doing. Do you see that as soon as we say "man turned away from God", there is already likely a bit of blame in the statement? Blame is part of the workings of our conscience, prodding us to turn to the Spirit, and that is good, but there is a trade-off. The trade-off is that self-blame creates an inner division, we have a departure from holiness, wholeness. So while there is a place for this self-blame, once we have indeed turned to God, and Love is our guide, we no longer need the self-blame. We can see our own lack of awareness that led to our poor choices, and we can forgive just as Papa forgives, just as Jesus forgave from the cross.

We can come to see that eating of the tree was merely part of our own growth. We seek what is good, we make errors due to lack of awareness, we suffer, and then we learn. I don't see how God laments this, even though we learn so slowly.
Yes, our Brother Jesus comes and clarifies who Papa is, He shows us that He has loved us all along and never held a grudge!
Jesus modeled a re-turning to the trust and love of the Great Dance. If we look back and read what has been purported to be the Words of Jesus, and filter that through the lens of Love, the truth will set us FREE!

Blessings,
[m]
:D

Post Reply

Return to “Chapter 11 - Here Come Da Judge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest