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Bad Plants?

Questions and Conversation about Chapter 9

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Doggie
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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by Doggie » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:23 am

I don't know about you but I know that I'm not perfect. I also don't believe that a loving God would consider the condition I'm in as perfect. I'm also not always lovable.
I don't blame God for the way the world is. I would say that mankind has done a pretty good job of making this mess.

I'm sorry but to me if the condition of the heart of mankind is beautiful and lovable just the way out is then as a parent I shouldn't have needed to teach my children to share and be truthful. I believe that we are born selfish.
It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.

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Cathy
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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by Cathy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:46 pm

I agree with you, Colleen. You explained it well.

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Papalovesyou
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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by Papalovesyou » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:09 pm

I'm sorry but to me if the condition of the heart of mankind is beautiful and lovable just the way out is then as a parent I shouldn't have needed to teach my children to share and be truthful. I believe that we are born selfish.
I believe children need to express their needs, which often appear selfish (from a human standpoint). I believe we are born in the image of the Father, and it is our lifelong journey to discover the Divine, within and without. We are lovable not due to anything else, but simply because we are the Created, and He is the Creator.

My 2 cents,
[m]
May we all come to know Papa as we are known... and see ourselves as He sees us!

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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by OneSheep » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:23 pm

Doggie wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:23 am
I don't know about you but I know that I'm not perfect. I also don't believe that a loving God would consider the condition I'm in as perfect. I'm also not always lovable.
As parents, when our children behave in ways that trigger negative reactions from us, we don't find our children lovable. However, Papa (as I know Papa) does not have these reactions, and finds us lovable no matter what we are doing.
I don't blame God for the way the world is. I would say that mankind has done a pretty good job of making this mess.
Yes, that puts us in a position of humility, which is good.
I'm sorry but to me if the condition of the heart of mankind is beautiful and lovable just the way out is then as a parent I shouldn't have needed to teach my children to share and be truthful. I believe that we are born selfish.
No need to be sorry at all. And in teaching the children this way, you are enhancing the development of their consciences, they hopefully do not have to suffer all the errors of telling lies and not sharing in order to form good habits. But you see, in their hearts are the desire to share and be truthful, it is just that we have some natural self-preservation capacities, including the capacity to lie and the compulsion to hoard wealth and be territorial. These are all good parts of our nature, but they can enslave us unless we access what is deeper within, the desire to love and be merciful.

So, the capacity to lie and the desires for wealth and territory, present in all of us, are these "bad plants"?

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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by OneSheep » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Papalovesyou wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:09 pm
I'm sorry but to me if the condition of the heart of mankind is beautiful and lovable just the way out is then as a parent I shouldn't have needed to teach my children to share and be truthful. I believe that we are born selfish.
I believe children need to express their needs, which often appear selfish (from a human standpoint). I believe we are born in the image of the Father, and it is our lifelong journey to discover the Divine, within and without. We are lovable not due to anything else, but simply because we are the Created, and He is the Creator.

My 2 cents,
[m]
Well, I think your two cents is quite valuable! What I am saying here is that when children have needs,for example, that when expressed exclude consideration of the needs of others, then we naturally think of this behavior as a "bad plant", that the desire is "selfish". This is our wonderful conscience at work, doing what it is supposed to do. As I condemn certain behaviors, I feel guilty when I do them myself, which is a behavioral guide. The Papa I know, though, never condemns.

But as you accurately state, the child is expressing a need, which is good! The fact that the child does not have the experience to have developed empathy for the needs of others is simply something to be accepted; we can know that the child will learn this in time as they experience the lack of consideration of others.

So are there any "bad plants" in the human? Or instead, does our created state in itself glorify Papa?

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Papalovesyou
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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by Papalovesyou » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:27 pm

So are there any "bad plants" in the human? Or instead, does our created state in itself glorify Papa?
Intrinsically, and in our post-cross state, no "bad plants". As to glory, God needs no glory, but delights when we are in harmony with Them. The "bad plant" is separation, by choice. Love, in the Great Dance, is the "desired state", but we cannot expect those that live in the darkness of perceived lack of love from the Father to lived loved or loving.

To the depth we are able to love and know we are loved in the great Dance, we will ALL live in glory (what ever that means). It will be oh so glorious! As we are able to model this to our children, they will be able to have their own love relationship with the Trinity, which in turn, of course, shapes they way they are able to live loved and loving (as a natural Divine behavior).

Blessings,
[PLY]
May we all come to know Papa as we are known... and see ourselves as He sees us!

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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by OneSheep » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:52 pm

Papalovesyou wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:27 pm

Intrinsically, and in our post-cross state, no "bad plants". As to glory, God needs no glory, but delights when we are in harmony with Them. The "bad plant" is separation, by choice. Love, in the Great Dance, is the "desired state", but we cannot expect those that live in the darkness of perceived lack of love from the Father to lived loved or loving.

To the depth we are able to love and know we are loved in the great Dance, we will ALL live in glory (what ever that means). It will be oh so glorious! As we are able to model this to our children, they will be able to have their own love relationship with the Trinity, which in turn, of course, shapes they way they are able to live loved and loving (as a natural Divine behavior).

Blessings,
[PLY]
I think we are in agreement. I think that part of the nurturing of children is to allow them to develop their ideas of "bad plants", because attention to these "plants" helps guide their behaviors.

What I am talking about it this thread is a move beyond our "bad plant" illusion of parts of ourselves, and I think that Jesus is calling us to do just that, to respect our conscience, but to grow toward wholeness. He calls us to come and reconcile with the parts of ourselves we think of as "bad", to move beyond relying on the "carrot and stick" action of the conscience. It is the conscience that gives us the illusion, the useful illusion, that there are "bad plants".

Sure, our choices can be bad, but whenever we make these choices, we do not know what we are doing. There is nothing innate about choices, they are made based on what we feel and know.

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Re: Bad Plants?

Post by Papalovesyou » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:48 pm

Onesheep,
I diverge a little from your thinking in that I believe focus on "bad plants" or even "conscience" as it relates to "carrot/stick" is less than useful (and in fact moves us away from Love). I call this sin management. Focus on sin is not only counter productive, but takes our eyes (and heart) away from focus on Love. As we are able to model this to our children, they will fashion their own relationship with Love.

As for choices, again I may disagree. If we KNOW something is wrong (due to the Divine Spark), and choose to do something that is against Love, then we make a choice for separation. This is what I believe occurred in Eden, where a choice away from Trust and Love occurred, and plunged Mankind into fear/separation. Jesus removed our fear based glasses, and allowed us to see ourselves for who we truly are.

True Love will always drive out fear. And Love ALWAYS trusts. Jesus allows us to Re-turn to a trust relationship with Love/Trinity.

If this resonates with you in any way, I rejoice with you! It is offered in love, with no expectations as to the outcome.

Blessings,
[PLY]
May we all come to know Papa as we are known... and see ourselves as He sees us!

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